Talking religion

This is a transcript of a discussion I got into at reddit.com's 'Debate Religion' section. I'm not saying I won or anything, as the guy hasn't had a chance to get back to me yet, but I wanted to post what I said, along with the discussion just to provide some interesting thought. The people's names are in bold, and it states next to their name what they believe. My username is rybeardj.

[–]MJtheProphet atheist|evidentialist 11 points 8 hours ago (14|3)

If doctrines are a sufficient reason to label the religion violent, then why are so many Muslims not violent?

Because they're apparently bad Muslims. People fail to follow the dictates of their religion; it happens.

If the doctrines in the book are sufficient to explain Muslim belief, why are there so many Muslim beliefs?

Hadith. And time. I've already conceded that there's more to Islam than the Koran. That doesn't mean we can ignore the Koran, though, not when the religion considers it to be the perfect and final word of the creator of the universe.

Do you have any statistical evidence that Islam is more violent?

Yes. We can start with Pew's famous survey, showing the widespread support for suicide bombing. The same survey found that all 7 Muslim-majority nations polled have a negative opinion of Jews (2-9% positive); most violent attacks on Jews in Western Europe are caused by people of Arab/Muslim heritage, despite that group being only 4% of the population. There's the issue of domestic violence, and the plight of millions of Muslim women living in societies where conservative Islamic regimes force them to live in cloth bags, and where they have battery acid thrown in their faces for daring to learn to read. Let's go on:

• 4 out of 5 Middle-Eastern women are sexually abused between the ages of 3 and 6 by family members.
• 1 out of 3 British Muslims aged 16 to 24 believe that Muslim apostates should be executed.
• According to NCTC, of the 12,533 terrorism-related deaths worldwide in 2011, 8,886 were perpetrated by “Sunni extremists,” 1,926 by “secular/political/anarchist” groups, 1,519 by “unknown” factions, 170 by a category described as “other”, and 77 by “Neo-Nazi/Fascist/White Supremacist” groups.
• Dalia Mogahed and John Esposito co-authored the book "Who Speaks for Islam". Despite painting as nice a picture as they could (redefining "radicals" from 4 and 5 on their scale to just 5), they found that almost 4 out of 10 Muslims worldwide are extremists who think 9/11 was totally/partially/somewhat justified.
• Contrary to the "small minority" hypothesis, 49.9% of Arab Muslims expressed support for Osama bin Laden in an Al Jazeera survey.
• Dr. Faisal al-Qassem asked his viewers to respond to an online poll prior to a debate. The question was, "Do you believe that a non-violent Islam is an impractical, outdated theory?" Sixty-five percent of the respondents said Yes, only 35% said No.
• According to a 2011 survey conducted by TrustLaw, a legal news service run by the Thomson-Reuters Foundation, 3 of the 5 most dangerous countries for women (including the top-spot) are Muslim majorities, and in terms of cultural/tribal/religious danger to women, 4 of the 5 most dangerous countries are Muslim majorities.
• Two thirds of all reported incidents of anti-gay violence in Amsterdam are by Muslim youths.
• A 2009 Gallup survey could not find a single UK Muslim who approved of homosexuality.
• According to a BBC Panorama investigation, Sharia law classes in Islamic schools in Britain use textbooks which tell children that the penalty for gay sex is execution, that “Zionists” are plotting to take over the world for the Jews and the correct way to cut off the hands and feet of convicted thieves. Gay sex is punished by execution, the schools allegedly teach. However, children are told that clerics are said to differ in whether the guilty person should be stoned, thrown off a cliff or burnt.
• Five of the nations ranked least peaceful in the world by the Global Peace Index are Islamic countries.
• Muslim nations make up nine out of the top ten countries where Christians face the “most severe” persecution, and 38 of the top 50, reports U.S.-based Open Doors in its 2012 World Watch List.
• Since 1990, 52 people accused of blasphemy in Pakistan have been extra-judicially killed by lynch mobs.

I think that's a good start.

[–]rybeardj (This is me!)

2 points 7 hours ago (2|0)

I appreciate the time and effort it took to compile this response.

[–]jeffanie96  muslim 2 points 4 hours ago (5|3)

he got most of this from the religionofpeace.org. I've looked through some of the surveys like the ICM one which took a small sample size and really asked just friends of friends, hence the skewed statistics.
Also, if you read what the statisticians at Gallup and Pew wrote in their reports, they reach an entirely different conclusion than OP. Just go and read the links

[–]rybeardj 1 point 1 minute ago

Yeah, I can see what you're saying a little bit. I understood that some of those studies aren't very reliable, like the online survey one. I don't know what statisticians you're talking about, but if it's hidden in those links I didn't find it. Do you have a link to the statisticians?
I guess the other side to the coin though for me is that whiie some, if not all of the links might not be totally reputable, my confirmation bias/common sense dictates that it's just not a healthy religion. Heck, all of the links could be fraudulent, and I would still believe, based on the people I've met of the years, that people don't want to leave the religion based on a fear of death or expulsion from their family. I feel any religion that touts a death sentence for those that leave is morally bankrupt. Also, people can argue till they're blue in the face that it treats women as equals, but that's just not what I've seen in my experience. Lastly, this intense hatred of gays just doesn't work for me. I don't see how you can justify killing gays. I can see how someone looking at a book that tells you to kill gays would think it was ok, but I don't personally see how killing gays makes any sense. Oh wait, two more things:

1. I did see how the Pew report could be skewed. Just the wording of it sounded like a right-wing think tank.
2. I used to be Christian, and one of the reasons I left Christianity was that Jesus said, "By their fruits you shall know them," which kinda meant that you could look at people and tell if they were following the one true religion by how they acted. Having seen the absolutely lousy success rate of Christianity (or perhaps just expecting too much out of it) over the years, I kinda took that quote and applied it against the religion. I think I would do the same with Islam. I've met and had friendships with many Muslims, but at the same time there's never been any point in time when I've thought, "Man, you know what? Those Muslims have something really really amazing that I don't. They are just so kinda, so compassionate, so full of justice and goodwill towards all mankind and their families are just the epitome of happiness." Honestly, for the most part, I've always thought this of Muslims: I've met some really great people who are Muslim, I've met some average people who are Muslim, and I've met some really shitty people who are Muslim. It's the exact same as my experience with Christianity in its various forms. I think you can take that and put it on a geo-political level too: why aren't all the predominantly Muslim countries the safest, healthiest countries in the world? If their God is so great, and so right, why isn't it showing in their quality of life?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Muslims are worse people than anyone else. Not at all. The same with Muslim countries. What I'm really saying is that they're just not any better or worse than you and me. That's what really does it for me. What do you think?
p.s. Unlike a majority on reddit, I'm here for an intelligent discussion, and am not looking to offend or belittle you. I honestly enjoy just having a stimulating conversation, and I appreciate you as a human being.